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[egoexpress]

This thread is based on a discussion that has been started in Ledfoot' simulator project blog regarding a commercial product.
Unfortunately there is much confusion about what is allowed or prohibited in terms of promotion, or dealing with commercial products in the XSim forum.

Though some sections provide a vague description...

DIY motion simulator projects
Community DIY motion simulator projects with X-Sim. Share your projects with reproduction hints and learn from others. Commercial projects are not welcome in this section.

...I agree that there is a need for some more specific guidelines.

But I have no expertise regarding this issue and my english isn't good enough to write legal stuff either. So probably it would be best, if someone could work something out with the XSim chef (Sirnoname), to bring some light to the issue.
Because there is much confusion out there, and I am tired of second guessing of what should be allowed and what not as well...

Regards

[bvillersjr]

This is a very interesting subject to explore as the X-Sim community and DIY simulator markets mature and grow. I think this decision is one that will shape and define the future of the X-Sim Community.

I always understood the following to mean that complete simulators for sale are not welcome in the DIY simulators category. This would be logical. A simulator that is purchased complete, is not a DIY simulator.

DIY motion simulator projects
Community DIY motion simulator projects with X-Sim. Share your projects with reproduction hints and learn from others. Commercial projects are not welcome in this section.

However, I hope that we can keep these forums open to the discussion of simulator related parts and accessories that can be used by DIY sim builders. For example, I enjoy the conversations in these forums about Panasonic projectors, Logitech G25's / G27's, power supplies, FTDI adapters, CST pedals, aluminum profiles, gauges, electronic compents, etc.. All of these items are commercial items, and we frequently discuss them here as well as where to buy, pricing, etc.. I find these conversations both helpful and interesting. I think that in addition to X-Sim, these types of discussions are what DIY sim builders are interested in. I know I am.

[Frakk]

I agree with you Bernard! The community is growing and so the forum needs to grow too.

I personally have nothing against discussing a commercial part of one's simulator in their own DIY thread, but I do think that commercial products should be discussed separately. Having said that, I propose that new categories get introduced to the forum which will solve a lot of organizational problems.

For example:

Simulator Design
-DIY simulator projects and parts
-Commercial simulators and parts
-3D / CAD development

Displays
-Projection
-LCD

Electronics
-Controllers
-Drives
-Interfaces
-Misc

Software
-X-Sim
-Microcontrollers
-Community development
-Other

Just some ideas of course. I have a bunch of small little electronic gadgets like encoders hacked from a ball mouse, serial programmer that has a MAX232 for interfacing and so on, but there is no place to share these.

What do you think?

[bvillersjr]

Hi Frakk,

To be brutally honest, I think that the SimXperience business model is in part a reason for the confusion, although definitely not the only reason. To explain, a little background information is required: X-Sim seems to have grown up around a concept that X-Sim is a competitor to commercial simulators. This thinking came to be because commercial simulators of the past had competiting software and is evidenced by the forum category named "Simulators of Our Competitors". All of us involved with X-Sim have taken a great deal of pride in it and its growth over the years. The end-result has been a software that trounces competing software. SimXperience is the first of what I think will be many companies that takes advantage of this superior software and leverages it to provide a more cost effective simulator relative to pricing that existed before X-Sim.

The line gets blurred even further by the fact that the main focus of SimXperience is to provide DIY sim builders with parts, accessories and software that makes getting invloved with X-Sim as easy as possible for noobs. It is not an all or nothing system. If you can weld, you can build your own, if you can build electronics, you can build your own and save. If someone doesn't have one of these skills, then we attempt to fill the gap and make it possible for them to purchase the parts that they cannot build themselves and still contribute to the X-Sim community. It is my hope that these parts and accessories would be viewed as welcome additions and not as "competing". That is the reason for the X-Ready logo program etc.

I think that your idea to add further categorization is a good one. I will try to find time over the course of the next few days to "test" this proposed structure by attempting to categorize some posts offline, especially those that I remember to have caused friction over the years. EgoExpress has been categorizing posts here for years. He probably can offer more feedback on this than anyone.

[ledfoot]

From my perspective, this is a DIY forum and DIY components should be discussed openly in the forum so that it can benefit other X-Sim users. I do agree that any kind of pricing discussions should be taken offline or there should be a separate forum where pricing can be discussed openly even for competing products so that X-Simers will be well informed about the cost benefits of DIY vs Ready built and also how that compares with competing products and their pricing.

I think that the discussion of SimXperience products can only help to promote the X-Sim brand and is another avenue that will encourage new members that would not necessarily have the skill or knowledge to pursue a DIY project of this magnitude.

Just my 2 cents....

[Raceray]

Hi,

i think as long as any items, peripherie, mods etc. are well described and recreateable/reproducible it doesn´t matter if they are offered commercial or for a fee, as long as the following disscussions are about the DIY thought and technical aspect mainly and not too aggressive to any commercial issues, like price comprahision,sources and so on,.

To brand the "X-SIM ready" logo and to convince any company for the need of compatibility to x-sim i suggest to rename the following forum:
Simulators of our competitors -> Simulators they are not X-SIM ready

I don´t like the word "competitors" as the DIY guy is not developing in a professional manner to make any profit. Commercial simulators are are not our competitiors, more a opportunity to compare the own work and to make it better!

Little ot
I agree with Frakk to create some more forums and to motivate developers to publish more DIY hardware and software projects, even when they are not related directly to motion simulators. But that is more a personal interest of me than a logical consequence. Think it is nice to participate in the know how and ideas of our DIY guys

my english isn't good enough to write legal stuff either.

That´s the reason why i want to have a german only section at x-sim ... not for the legal stuff, but for general informations about x-sim. i will start a thread about it, dont want to highjack your thread.

regards, René

[Nima]

hi,
i mean bernard have make a nice dämperingtool for all scn5 user.i want too talk about this in the forum.bernard make many thinks for the forum and i dont see big promotion.i dont have see the price.

[Frakk]

All great thoughts guys!

Rene you are right that the "competitor" word has become inappropriate. We are not competing with anyone, we just make things work. There is really no borderline between a commercial simulator and a DIY simulator because it is highly unlikely that someone builds everything himself. You still need to buy wheels, monitors, peripherals, gauge displays, motion control, parts for the frame and so on. And at what ratio do you consider it DIY? If you buy everything, but put it all together (obviously you have to put stuff together because shipping a huge crate is not really an option only for smaller simulators).

This is where SimXperience falls in place, and I'm sure others will follow. As said, we can categorize electronics and software as X-Sim compatible or not, because that what really matters here. And also I think brands that contribute to X-Sim like SimXperience should have their own forum section for product discussions, pricing, and overall customer support.

And a German section? Well, I hope I could understand you people You must be talking about cool stuff too!

[netwizrm]

I think we should keep it simple and no over engineer the processes, a commercial products section would be beneficial to all of us, we could enlighten each other on products and vendors of several of the componets that we need for complete our DIY projects

That´s the reason why i want to have a german only section at x-sim ... not for the legal stuff, but for general informations about x-sim. i will start a thread about it, dont want to highjack your thread.

regards, René

I agree with everyone's input on this subject, but a German only section would only help create separation and divisions, some of us would not be able to contribute and advise on others DIY projects. The google transelator for "German" doesn't do me much justice.

[egoexpress]

Of course it is 100% Ok and welcome to review and talk about commercial products here in the XSim forum.

But there is a difference if we, as private persons, talk about a commercial product,
or if the conversation is a sales talk between vendor and customer.

My point of view, explicitly regarding sales talks, is that they should be kept outside the private DIY XSim forum (private sales through the XSim marketplace/fleamarket excluded)

You guys should consider as well, how those in the forum, who offer their support and the fruits of their hard work for free, would feel, if there would be an increasing number of members, who'd be permanently talking about $$$$ and selling things.
Fortunately this isnt the case yet...however, I am just trying to nip it in the bud.
The focus in the XSim forum is on DIY and non-commercial projects; and I think this is a good thing.

Besides, I guess most commercial hardware vendors/manufacturers have their own websites and support forums for their products, so there is no need to shift sales talks to the XSim forum anyway.

Regarding the categorisation of commercial sims versus DIY sims:
Imo peripherals dont count.
If the motion part is DIY, the whole simulator counts as DIY.

regards